Is Your Marketing Campaign Boring Your Buyers? Fix It Now.
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Is Your Marketing Campaign Boring Your Buyers? Fix It Now.

Female: Welcome to the SBI podcast offering CEOs, sales and marketing leaders’ ideas to make the number. Greg: Welcome to SBI podcast listeners and video podcast viewers. My name is Greg Alexander and I’m the CEO of SBI. A sales and marketing company dedicated to helping you make your number. This is the weekly SBI podcast and its purpose is simple we want to help you make your number by getting your peers to share with you how they make theirs. Today’s guest is Laura Goldberg and she’s the Chief Marketing Officer at LegalZoom. The provider of quality modern legal solutions for families and small business. Founded more than 10 years ago the company has helped more than 2 million Americans with legal documents and I’m a happy
customer myself. They’re not a law firm but a self-help service and if you do need an attorney they can help you locate the right one through the proper legal
planning. Laura has been with the company for almost 2 years and prior to that had a fascinating career with stops at Napster as
the Chief Operating Officer. She was the general manager of
NFL Online. As we enter football season I’m
excited about that. Laura is no Dummy. She got her undergraduate degree from Carnegie Mellon University and she is a bona fide Harvard MBA. Laura welcome to the SBI podcast. Laura: Thank you. Greg: Today I am going to ask Laura to help her peers, other CMOs set their companies up for success by demonstrating how to plan marketing campaigns. Why have I chose this subject? Some of our listeners are not
generating the results they want from their marketing campaigns. Some of the root causes behind
these failed campaigns are things like poorly defined audiences, the wrong programs or activities
are used or in some cases the offers presented are not as compelling
as they could be. I asked Laura to be on this show because I’ve been watching her recent television campaign on CNBC and ESPN. I have been very impressed and thought she would be the
perfect person to discuss this subject. We’re going to use SBI’s revenue growth methodology to guide our conversation. Specifically pages 117 and 119. If you want to follow along at
home here’s what it looks like. I’m holding it up for those
that are viewing the video. You can get a copy of it by going to Laura are you ready for my
questions? Laura: I am ready. Greg: Let’s try to help the
audience think through how to decide which type of campaigns to run? For example at least in the B2B space there are things like awareness campaigns, competitive replacement
campaigns, maybe you want to run a cross-sell campaign or an up-sell campaign etcetera. How can a marketer make the
right choice? Laura: It is all about defining
your goals up front. What is it that you are trying
to do? Are you trying to acquire new customers, are you trying to grow your average order value per customer or your lifetime
value of that customer? Are you’re trying to launch a new product, change what you’re trying to do? We try to think about what are we trying to achieve with our marketing in general and with these campaigns
specifically. When we think about TV it is a little more weighted toward awareness and I would say general value and what I mean by that is the suite of products. When I look at our online marketing
whether that’s SEM or display that is much more targeted. That is about someone who is about to make a purchasing decision and trying to get them in for that exact transaction. Greg: It’s a great answer and I’m going to
tell the audience a little story. My wife and I recently relocated back to Texas after living in Georgia for a while. I got busy and then things caught up to me and my accountant reminded me that I needed to change my
will. There I am watching CNBC in the morning while I’m having a cup of coffee and crying in my coffee about all the money I’m
losing in the stock market. Later on that evening I’m watching the Dallas Cowboys Training Camp highlights on
ESPN and you ran a spot in the
morning in CNBC and a sport in the evening on
ESPN and it hit me. I’m saying to myself, “Boy it’s
almost as if Laura and LegalZoom knew that I had just relocated and I
have a need.” You certainly know you mid-40s
male demographic? Laura: Yes. We definitely have that
demographic now of a certain income. It’s very interesting because
we talk a lot about trigger events. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, “Hey I think I’ll get some legal help today.” There’s always a trigger event and there are the happy trigger events a move, a new house, a baby, someone may be leaving the house whatever that is which we try and find. It’s definitely harder obviously through television, but easier through things like
SEM and online and looking at
partners. We’ve looked at, “Hey should we partner with wedding planners?” Because after you plan your wedding you’re going to be married you probably need to redo or do your will. We’re always looking for those
triggers and I love your trigger event. Greg: I told you exactly what
happened. I saw the TV show, I don’t
anywhere without my phone. Again on my phone go to your
website and bingo there I am and you’re right. The messaging and the
call-to-action if you will on the phone was different than what I saw on TV. Whatever you’re doing keep
doing it because it certainly worked on me. Laura: Excellent I like it and
we are finding you where you’re consuming your television which is good. Greg: My next question is
unfair. It’s multi-part so bear with me but I try to take five questions and stick them into one to try to keep this podcast
reasonably short. Here it is. For each campaign you have to determine your objectives, which you just spoke about, your budget, your medium mix, your channels in the schedule and probably 25 other things but those are the five that my clients tell me are the ones that stump them. If you think about those five things how do you at LegalZoom determine those things and make these critical
strategic decisions? Laura: We have a lot of
products which also complicate that. When you’re selling one thing
then it’s five factors on one product. We have lots of products and
three main product lines business products, personal products, so the will
that you were talking about, intellectual property. We try and group those together
and then we think about what we’re trying to do. Generally acquire new
customers, sometimes it’s increase our LTV or our average order value. Then we allocate our money
against those 3 products and try to figure out what the
best place is. For example we do not advertise
our trademark products much on TV. We found that trademarks are complicated, it’s a long buying process and that online is a much better channel for
that kind of product. Other interesting is that our
estate planning products we find work much better on the
weekends. When you’re not sitting at your
office you are much more likely to take care of your family or
your household chores if you will. I don’t want to call making a
will a chore but like a household chore. During the week we do much
better with our business product. We think about those, we look at the buying behaviors, we look at the decision making and then we figure out the objective, we see how much money we have. We start high at media mix. X is going to go into TV, Y is going to go online and
Z is going to go to other maybe direct mail or some other
channels like that. Then we build the campaigns against them and try and schedule times where we know people are busy and go dark other places when we know we won’t be getting much business. It’s hard and it’s a lot of juggling because we always want to optimize, we want to figure out what that optimal
customer acquisition cost is based on our projected
lifetime value. Greg: You said something in your answer there that struck which is you start at media mix. For those marketers that are listing to this that might not be as advanced particular online as you are given your
background. Tell everybody why you start at
media mix. Laura: I would say two reasons,
one is the dollars are very different. The dollars that you spend and
the ROIs that you look at for TV are very different than the
ones online. The other problem with TV is it’s harder to measure but we start with the big buckets because we know that our business products really get
driven from television and our personal products from
a lesser extent. That actually enhances our
online. I’ll get a better ROI on a start your business product
like forming an LLC or a corporation when I have TV
running. The two work together. It’s also just for us an easier
way if you will to budget. Greg: Okay, got it. Have you ever Ted MacLean he is
the CMO at Iron Mountain? Laura: I have not. Greg: For some reason I thought
you guys run on each other’s circles I’ll try to connect you to him. The reason why I’m bringing him up is I recently interviewed him for our magazine the SBI Magazine an article titled The Iron Mountain Way which was published in the Q2 edition. You and Ted agree on much in listening to your answers so I tell you what I’m going to take a short break here and
want the audience to understand how to get a copy of that
article. I’m holding it up right now in
the screen. Stick around here’s how to get a copy of the SBI Magazine and we’ll be right back. Male: Making your number is
hard, your problems are complex, complex problems need complex
solution. Introducing the SBI Magazine read in-depth stories written by award winning journalists about how your peers have overcome their problems to make the numbers. When you need more than a tweet, social post or blog article turn to the SBI Magazine. Go to to
subscribe. Greg: Welcome back my name is
Greg Alexander and I am the CEO of SBI and my guest today is Laura
Goldberg, the chief marketing officer at LegalZoom. Today we are discussing how a CMO can set his or her company up for success by implementing proper campaign
planning. We’re using SBI’s revenue growth methodology to do this so we stay focused and don’t ramble specifically pages 117
and 119 if you’re following along. Before the break Laura shared with us how she selects campaign type, sets goals, figures out budget and thinks through the schedule of each of her campaigns and we learn things about
starting with medium mix as an example. During this segment we’re going
to hear from Laura about how to target an audience, develop content and handle the creative. Laura how do you handle targeting? Laura: We have spent a lot of time, energy and money thinking about who our customer was. We actually did towards the middle of last year a
segmentation study to see what was the right characteristic of someone
who is going to be open to a new and different way of
purchasing a legal solution. Interestingly, we very much
thought that we would end up with industry segmentation
right. People starting a retail shop,
freelancers, construction and it was not where we ended
up at all. We ended up with some demographic information about age, household income, gender, but also a lot of psychographic
if you will. Information about 2 segments
one that we call the do it yourselfer. Someone who is very comfortable
going online, filling out information, talking to an attorney or a sales-rep via
phone or chat or email. Our other segment is called the
online collaborator who is someone who needs a little more
handholding. It will segway nicely in the content, who may want to read a little more about it, may want to have a longer conversation, may want to consult with an attorney first. We really developed a couple of
customer profiles that we really go after. They have the traditional 35 to 55 or 60 age demo, household income, gender split, but we also look at things like going to start a business, likelihood to have children, comfort going online things
like that. Whether we’re buying TV or
online we can target those characteristics as well as the traditional
demographic. Greg: I love the names, do it
yourselfer, online collaborator those are great names you could
certainly hand those names to creative people and they can
off and running pretty quickly. Laura: Yes. Greg: It just dawned on me the
added complexity in your situation. You have both a consumer
business and B2B business correct? Laura: Correct. Greg: I’m curious here are the
behavioral indicators, buying behavior significantly different or since you’re a B2B
focus as I understand in anyways is focus at the small business segment
is it fairly similar? Laura: It’s pretty similar most small businesses behave like consumers in that there’s a single decision maker, whether it’s the head of household or the starter of the business. They behave pretty similarly. I will say if we were solely a
consumer business maybe you wouldn’t see us as much on CNBC, CNN those
types of places. We definitely advertise in that
business minded channel, but it’s really interesting the behavior of a small business owner and a
particularly one who’s starting is very similar to that of a consumer because
they at the end of the day are just people right? Greg: Let me validate that I mean I’m a small business owner and we just have a few dozen people in our firm and when I
buy something I’m spending my own money because I own the company. I totally behave like a consumer there’s no question
about it. So interesting. Let’s move to content creation. We have our two targets the do it yourselfer and the online collaborator and you want to put content in front of them
that gets them to take the desired action. How do you create content? Laura: We create content a
number of ways and we create a lot of content. If you were to search for LLC versus Incorporation or what’s the difference between last will and a living trust you will see a lot of LegalZoom content come up. We have attorneys in-house who
write some of that content. We have a network of attorneys that contribute content so this is written content to us. A big focus going forward has
been in video content. Really instead of making someone read through what the difference between a Inc. and LLC is we have what we call
explainer videos. Which will in a pretty simple way in one and half to two
minutes, explain what’s the difference between a trademark,
a copyright and a patent. Who needs the last will and who
needs the living trust. What are the differences of
those things? We’re really trying to move a
little more to video something that’s a little more engaging and then get people to follow through and then the other content is talking to our attorneys or talking to
sales folks who really help our customers a tremendous amount in the
decision-making process. Greg: I’m curious so we were just talking about your
television campaign and anybody that can buy space on CNBC or ESPN particularly during the prime viewing hours has a fairly substantial budget and yet here we are talking about content so you’re investing heavily in that as well to the point where you’re actually
hiring attorneys to write content for you to make it as
relevant as possible. How do you juggle between paid
and earned? Laura: It is really hard. One of the hardest challenges
facing marketers today is attribution. What drives what? Everything is so inextricably
linked and then people will search on a question, go to their mobile phone, see
and ad, log into their desktop. We are like everyone struggling
with that. We use some 3rd party software
to try and help us key in sophisticated econometric
modelling to piece that out. I would say the last thing that we’re doing is constructing customer journeys, see an ad, read an article, buy
a product and different ways that we can close that loop and
track folks. Attribution is a huge challenge
that we are constantly working on. Greg: When you figure that one
out let me I’ll have you back on the show. Laura: I will or if you talk to
anyone who figures it out let me know. Greg: Alright my last question
during this segment is let’s talk about messaging and
artwork. When develop those because I
just heard from you that you’re not just giving that to an agency you’re developing
content in-house. That capability I mean being a
great copywriter, a great designer that’s a skill. You’re making this decision buy
versus build. Are you hiring those people
in-house and doing it yourself, are you outsourcing that to
agencies. How do you handle messaging and
art? Laura: It is a little bit of a
mix. We have a creative department
so most of our online content, our website, direct mail things like that we
do in-house and we have a very specific style guide, we have copy guide lines. We are trying very hard to
speak legal in English. We’re very much about no
legalese, making things clear, making them consistent. When it comes to our television
ads we actually work directly with a production company right now so we don’t actually
have an agency that may change in the future, but right now I have some folks
in my marketing department who work very closely with a production company and we work together to come up with concepts and to write the
copy and go shoot the ad. It is a lot of work, LegalZoom is really transitioning from being a document company to being a legal solutions
company and we felt like we really needed to put our thumb on the scale
pretty heavily while we were in that transition. Now that we have the key
messaging points down we will start to outsource a bit more so we
can get more done. Greg: My compliments to your
team. When I saw your material both online and on TV I mean I was going to ask you who’s your agency and compliment them, but
you’re doing that in-house so you have some really talented people so please send
along my compliments. Laura: I will thank you. Greg: We’re going to take
another big break here. I want this audience who’s listening to this particular
episode to check out the podcast episode that we had Chris
Marjara on. He is the CMO of McGraw-Hill
Education. Why do I want you to listen to
this? Well Chris is transforming a
legacy print textbook business into a digital eLearning
solutions. Laura is disrupting the legal profession and he is disrupting the educational space and I think there’s lots of
parallels there. This audience today that was drawn to this might find it
useful so let’s take a short break and direct everyone to subscribe to the SBI podcast we’ll be right back. Male: Do you have too many things to do and not enough time to do them? Is finding time to learn best
practices almost impossible? The SBI podcast is your solution turn time spent
exercising, commuting and travelling into productive learning time
with a subscription to the SBI podcast. SBI podcast listeners get unique insight into real-world
sales and marketing issues through interviews with your
industry peers every week. Find us on iTunes by searching for Sales Benchmark Index Podcast and subscribe today. Greg: Welcome back everybody my name is Greg Alexander and I am the CEO of SBI and my guest today is Laura
Goldberg the CMO of LegalZoom. Today we are discussing how a
CMO can set his or her company up for success by demonstrating how to plan
marketing campaigns. We’re using SBI’s revenue growth methodology to do it
specifically pages 117 and 119. If you want to follow along grab a hold of the report you
can do that at targeting, content creation and
creative. During this segment Laura is going to share with us her
views about channel selection which we’ve talked a little bit about, but I want to dive into that a little more. Key performance indicators at the campaign level, calls to action in testing. Laura there is an explosion of channels how do you select which content or which message to push through which channel? Laura: We try and determine what is going to be most
effective. On television unless you’re looking at direct response a
big call-to-action we don’t see it quite as
effective. When I look at keywords, purchasing keywords or
retargeting. Retargeting is when you come to our site maybe you leave and then we serve display ads that follow up then we look at
very specific call-to-actions right, finish your order, get an LLC
now. It is very much matching what
the medium is good for. In general different mediums
are good for different things and then each company will have
nuances. We found that SEM has been
incredibly effective for us. Our product is a research heavy
product and keywords with strong call-to-actions
have been very effective. When you get further up what we
might call prospecting, basic online then maybe not such a strong
call-to-action, maybe something more like
‘learn more’ or ‘find out how.’ Which gets you to our site,
gets you to learn more in the funnel but is maybe not so strong in terms of
do it right now. We try and match the action to
the channel and then we have ROI goals against each channel and what
we’re trying to get. Television we may measure
direct traffic based on that. For SEM we’re measuring
transactions etcetera. It’s about matching the metric
and the action to the channel. Greg: The message for the audience is understand the different media types and what they’re really good
at. For example Laura mentioned earlier that television was
great for awareness so the offers that you put on TV need to be
awareness based whereas if you’re going to do something online like
explainer videos you might have a more direct
response like CTA. Let me go to my next question on this, key performance
indicators at the campaign level. I see some clients tracking way
too many things. I see some clients not tracking
enough things. It seems like everyone is in
search of the Holy Grail here which we talked about which is
attribution. Is there a way to simplify key performance indicators at the campaign level? Laura: It’s imperative to at least at a high level have two
or three goals that are the Holy Grail for
your company. For LegalZoom we look at acquisition cost, lifetime
value and our MPF score. Those are our holy grail. As we look at each campaign for
very heavy call-to-action, retargeting SEM we target a net
margin and try and hit it. We may alter that net margin based on bigger goals but
that’s what we try and do. On television we look at traffic and then conversion of
that traffic. It’s hard because everything
inter-plays together. If I have a strong television campaign then my SEM net margin is going to be better. You can set the KPIs but then
you just have to be mindful about how your different levers
affect each other. Greg: Your solutions that you
sell to your customers. Are they point based so I buy
this and then maybe I don’t buy anything else or is it subscription based? Tell me a little bit about what you’re offering. Laura: We are really moving into subscription, lifetime
value and really building relationships with our customers because you need as a small business owner and even as the head of household as the
person in your family you’re going to need legal service more than
once in your life. While we really started as this online document company over the last four or five years we’ve added pretty strongly our
attorney network. We encourage everyone to sign
up for one of our legal plans which gives you unlimited access to an
attorney on new legal matters. It is a very affordable price and if you’re a small business owner you can call about your formation, you can call about a lease if you’re going to lease some space, you can call about a contract, you can call about employment issues
and we try and take care of that. We are really moving into the
legal solution space where we feel like we can provide a quality product at a
very reasonable price. Greg: I want to talk to you now
about calls-to-action. Obviously this has been very important for a long time so there’s nothing new here I think everyone
understands how critical it is. However with the movement
towards programmatic and machine placement it seems like the intensity on testing different
calls-to-action has gone up dramatically. Everybody wants to argue for example does the word free increase response rates or decrease response rates
etcetera. Do you have any secret sauce on
calls-to-action? Laura: No unfortunately I wish I did and why testing has
exploded which is that every call-to-action or every channel does not have the same
call-to-action right or isn’t going to be effective. You can test now the shape of the button, the color of the button, the call-to-action and we try and optimize all of
those things. I do think very targeted channels like an SEM channel a
much firmer call-to-action buy now, start now, work better than something that may be further up the funnel which is learn more, find out
more. We try and match the
call-to-action to the intent. Greg: Speaking of testing I
interviewed Elissa Fink who is the CMO of Tableau on this show and I asked her the question about testing and boy she tests everything. It was incredible what they were doing and I was a little
overwhelmed myself with all of the testing
capability. Is it worth it, can we paralyze
ourselves with too much testing? What’s your general philosophy
on testing? Laura: We test a lot, we try
and test, we test our way into things. What we try and do is we’ll
test on one product, we’ll test on one funnel and if it’s an overwhelming
success we will generally roll-out. We won’t wait and test it on
every single permutation of every single sales funnel
that we have. You can’t test everything and
you have to pick your battles. Where can you cause damage and where can you really move the needle because there’s only so many hours in a day, there
are only so many resources and you can only split your
traffic so many ways. You have to pick what’s really going to move the needle but we’re very aggressive testers here whether it’s images, copy, we test copy a
lot because that’s super important and then different sales
funnels. It’s incredibly important. Greg: The moral of the story here is if you’re not testing
start testing and believe it or not there’s folks that don’t test enough, but there’s a
point of diminishing returns. If you see something that’s a
blockbuster hit no reason to test it further roll it out so good advice
there. We’re going to take one more break when we come back Laura and I will discuss what to do next if you’re a CMO looking to
improve the results of your marketing campaigns. If you liked listening to Laura and want access to more peer driven best practices I think you should check out
our blog. Here’s some information about
SBI’s blog. Male: Each day you receive
hundreds of emails, tons of text messages, countless telephone calls and
sit in too many meetings. How do you find ideas to make
the number with all this noise? The SBI blog filters all this nonsense for you and presents only first-rate ideas to make the number. Simplify your life, subscribe
to one blog and read the best content. Go to
and subscribe today. Greg: Welcome back everybody Laura and I are going to
package all of our knowledge up to now in a little bow for you and we’re going to try to
summarize if you will everything that we’ve discussed so far in
our show. Laura if I had you on the set right now and stood you in
front of the camera and I said, “Speak directly to the audience,” What are the one to
three things you would advise them to do immediately following this show specific to improving campaign results? Laura: I would say one know
your audience, who are you selling to? Two is what are the selling
points that are really going to make them get off the sofa or their desk,
chair or whatever and go buy your products? What are the selling points? Then lastly is to really match
the action you want to the channel that you’re going to spend your
dollars. Greg: Great advice. Let’s follow Laura’s advice,
you should have the equivalent of do it yourself and online
collaborator. You should know the different medium mix and what offers to put through each. You should understand your unique selling proposition and your different sales funnels. These are all great pieces of
advice coming from an advanced marketer. Let me offer you my advice if I may. Marketing budgets are under
pressure, we see this across the 19 industries that
we do work in. CEOs who are the people authorizing discretionary
marketing spend they want to see results and if the results are
good more budget comes your way. If results are poor budget gets
taken away and the key input into campaign success is proper
campaign planning. This is why you care about
today’s topic campaign planning. As you can see and hear from
Laura there’s a lot to it. It’s a lot more scientific
today than it ever has been. Take the time to plan your
campaigns correctly don’t just hit the send button because you’re eager to have a
lot of activity. We’re focused on results,
results over activities, focus on outcomes. If you want to make sure you get this right get a copy of
this year’s research report titled How to Make Your Number
in 2016. You can get that at If you feel you may not have an effective campaign planning process and you want one. You can have one of our experts
come to your office and put you through a workshop and it will detail how to do
this, at least our point of view on it which is informed from experts
like Laura. If you want to sign up for this
workshop go to the same URL Laura you are an incredible guest really I’m not just
saying that to make you feel good and properly thank you for
being on this show. You really were. I took three pages of notes here it seems like and I learned a lot. You made a big contribution to
our audience and I want on their behalf to personally thank you for
being on this show. Laura: Thank you for having it
was super fun. Greg: I would also like to
thank you our audience for tuning in. This show has become very popular in fact it wouldn’t
surprise me if this episode gets downloaded over 30,000
times. With this popularity comes
great guests like Laura. Laura wants to come on shows to
get the word out there and if we have a good audience which we do and it’s growing thanks to you then she’s going to want to be on this show. I really want to thank you for
tuning in and for being a loyal watcher and listener to the SBI podcast and until we
meet again I want to wish you much success as you try to make your number. Female: This has been the SBI
podcast. For more information on SBI services, case studies, the SBI team and how we work, Visit

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